Panelists:
Marilyn of the Reclaiming Tradition
Kay Gardner of the Temple of the Feminine Divine and Iseum Musicum
Andras Corben Arthen of Earthspirit
Sarah - a Hellenic Reconstructionist
Bill Dwinnells of Raven Kindred North
Jennifer Moore - a Christian Witch, Reiki Healer, and Sacred Tattoo Artist

 

INTRODUCTION TO THE DISCUSSION AND THE PANELISTS

Julie: Good evening . . . and welcome to tonight's panel discussion, "The Faces of New England's Non-Mainstream Religions." My name is Julie and I'm the Chair of the Pagan Students Association. Tonight's program is part of a series of lectures being held by USM's Religious Convocation.

I'd like to take a moment to ask everyone here to think about the following questions. Do you know a friend, a co-worker, or a fellow student who observes different holiday traditions, or perhaps observes different holidays altogether? Have you been curious about it, but maybe have been too timid to ask because you didn't know what questions to ask or even how to start a conversation about it? Or, some of you may already be familiar with these other traditions, but would like the opportunity to ask more. Tonight's program provides a forum for you to ask some of these questions and others to our six-person panel. Each panelist comes from a very different background and spiritual path. All of whom, are considered non-mainstream by today's society. Shortly, each panelist will be introducing himself or herself to you and then the floor will be opened for any questions that you may have.

In presenting this forum, we do not intend to endorse any religion or spiritual path as any better than another, nor do we seek to encourage debate on this point from the audience. Instead, this session is intended to be informational and educational. With that in mind, please remember to treat all persons present with the respect and kindness, which you yourself would like to be treated. It is the sincerest hope of the presenters and the Pagan Students Association that through the understanding of each other, all people of the Earth can give living in peace and harmony the priority it deserves as we enter into this new millennium.

Now, I'd like to turn the program over to tonight's moderator, Jon, who is the Vice-President of the Board of Student Organizations.

Jon: Here are tonight's panelists, who will give a brief introduction of themselves.

Marilyn: Good evening. My name is Marilyn and I am here tonight as a Quaker Wiccan. Now that may seem like two entirely different things to some people, but they are actually quite similar. I'm not sure how much any of you know about Paganism, so I thought I'd say a little bit.

Prefacing, I'd like to say first that there are many different kinds of Paganism. And please keep in mind that anything I say, there may be an exception. Paganism is an Earth-based spirituality that honors the life in all things. We celebrate goddesses and gods. The Divine is eminent in all things, so that all things are sacred -- people, nature, and the forces of nature. It is a religion of personal responsibility. Anyone can be a priest or priestess. There's no one authority or guru to look to.

There are two ethical statements that most Pagans recognize: "An it harm none, do what you will;" and the second one being that anything you send out will return to you three times. One of the things that people not familiar with Paganism often like to know about is, "What about spells?" Well, the second statement is obviously going to be fairly prohibitive for anyone doing anything negative, and the first one, "harm no-one," includes oneself, as well as everybody else.

I could say that most of these things tend to be true for most Pagan traditions, however I represent the Reclaiming Tradition. So, what does that mean? Reclaiming is a tradition which was founded by Starhawk. It is a contemporary tradition based on Fairy Tradition. Some of the things that make Reclaiming stand out is its activism -- feminist, non-violent., and working for political change. Reclaiming is a non-hierarchical tradition -- in Reclaiming there are no priests or priestesses-- organization passes around in circles in small groups. It emphasizes power from within, rather than power over. It is gay and queer friendly. It is also a very creative tradition -- creativity is the order of the day. In Reclaiming, you may never have the same ritual twice. There is also an emphasis on sacred stories-- often an ordinary tale will become the basis for a myth of a whole year's cycle. And there is also a very strong environmental focus. A lot of you may have heard about the little action in Seattle at the WTO meeting. There were Reclaiming Wiccans at the forefront there participating in non-violent protest. That was considered a religious action. It is also a Shamanic Tradition, there are trance states with group workings of energy. Those are the highlights of Reclaiming.

I am a Quaker Wiccan, and people often ask, "How on earth can you be both?" I won't go into too much detail, but basically I'll just say that for both Quaker and Reclaiming -- non-violence, Divine Eminence, and personal responsibility are the norm. Quakers also do not have priests -- they function in small non-hierarchical groups. Social activism is also very important to Quakers, they have been at the forefront for same-sex marriages and prison reform. And in the past, Quakers were persecuted as witches.

Kay Gardner: Hello, I'm Kay Gardner from Bangor. I am part of the Iseum Musicum which is a group of women studying to receive Priestess ordination. We have no men as yet -- eventually we will invite men to join us as well.

I'd like to talk about where I'm coming from and how I got into Paganism. In 1968, I read Tarot cards -- I was a wild hippie chick. In 1973, I read an article about Z. Budapest who had been arrested for reading Tarot cards, and where she was at the time it was against the law to read fortunes. She fought the law and took it all the was to the Supreme Court, and I thought, "Wow. She's cool." She was priestess and founder of Susan B. Anthony Coven #1. Feminist Wicca grew up out of the women's movement. What we did was take back our bodies, take back our spirits. The Divine is Feminine to us.

I was initiated by Z. Budapest who was seeding covens. I was a practicing Solitary, even though I didn't know it. She initiated us, and asked who wanted to be a high priestess. Four of us raised our hands, and I was appointed high priestess of Amelia Earhart Coven #1. I didn't know what I was doing and was totally out of my element, so eventually I went back to my primary vocation which was a composer and musician. However, I dedicated myself to writing about the Feminine Divine. The goddesses I serve are Isis and Quan Yin.

In 1981, I went to Ballymore Castle in Ireland and met with the Lady Olivia who was the founder of the Fellowship of Isis -- a group that was founded around the same time as feminist Dianic Wicca -- and we clicked. I kept in touch with Lady Olivia over the years, and in 1998 a group of women began our tour of the sacred sites. When I came back to Maine, I knew that it was a time for a temple amidst all the steeples in Bangor. With Lady Olivia's help, I founded the Iseum Musicum, which concentrates on liturgical music for Pagans. We're in our second year now. We meet together weekly and on Holy Days. It's very wonderful -- I'm totally "out." In fact, this morning I was at a meeting with Catholics and Baptists, and they welcomed me. I enjoy being out, I enjoy talking about the Feminine Divine, and I deliver sermons at various churches around Maine on that subject. I'd love to talk to anyone who wants to know more about the Iseum Musicum and the Temple of the Feminine Divine.

Andras Corban Arthen: My name is Andras and I am a witch and a Pagan priest. For me I think my interest in not only witchcraft but the supernatural began when I was a small child. Where over the years I had very unusual experiences -- for lack of a better term I'll call it psychic experiences -- which left me with the sense that there was something real beyond this reality. And I would be unable to articulate these if not for the training that I have had.

I was raised Roman Catholic, and when I was in my teens, like so many people do, I questioned my religion. I did some self-examination and realized that I really wasn't Catholic, I wasn't Christian. But I didn't know what it was.

In the late sixties, I moved to Boston to attend school. There I met these two people who were a married couple, who were members of a family of witches in Scotland. These people had a lineage of witchcraft going back many generations in their family. What these people presented to me as witchcraft was not only completely the opposite of what I had thought it was, but more to the point, it struck an element inside of me. I felt very responsive to it and eventually, I had an apprenticeship with them and they trained me -- they made me a witch and adopted me into their family. I've been a witch ever since.

I run an organization called Earth Spirit which was formed 1980, and run out of Western Massachusetts. We do a variety of things -- Earth Spirit's mission is to create Pagan culture and community in the modern world. So we do things like teach classes, put on organized rituals, Pagan gatherings, artistic performances that have a Pagan theme, and publications. We do this to bring together people of like mind, who drawn to the nature religions and spirituality. We are very diverse -- that when we talk about Paganism we are talking about Paganisms. I guess I'm one of those people that in some ways who is somewhat out of the mainstream with tradition. The people who taught me, they did not think of witchcraft as a religion, but rather to them witchcraft was more sort of a way of sorcery or magic. It was more a matter of being taught magical techniques, and having these experiences outside of the ordinary world. It was the shaping of the witch, through these experiences through the years that enabled her to see beyond the ordinary world, to do things that might appear miraculous or magical or whatever. I am also a Pagan Priest, and to me Wicca and Paganism are related but separate, and for me Paganism is the remains of the old pre-Christian traditions of the Earth.

I think most Pagans nowadays are very focused on worshipping deities. I am an animist, so I don't worship deities. My practice is really more tuning into nature, that kind of focus.

Sarah: My name is Sarah. I feel incredibly young. I've been calling myself a Pagan for about four years now. I define myself specifically as a Hellenic Pagan. I would define my Pagan practice as polytheistic, I am theistic. I worship the Greek pantheon. I am also pantheistic, part of my spiritual practice is to recognize the inherent divinity of nature, and of all natural things.

The reason I began this path was not really of my own choice. I had a lot of supernatural experiences as a young child -- as I think a lot of people have. I certainly felt when walking through the woods felt that inherent divinity there. When I was 13, one of these strong experiences revolved around coming into contact with the first deity I have tried to contact, which was Dionysus, who is now my patron. Dionysus is the Greek god of wine. And so I ended up starting to call myself a Pagan. I was very drawn to the Greek pantheon, and when I started worshipping these gods, it seemed appropriate to worship them in the ways from the ancient times. So I set about to learn everything I could about ancient Greek history and religion. At this point, even though it's only been four years, I've immersed myself in it -- every aspect of my life relates to my religious practice. I am a mask maker, and my masks are primarily religious -- ritual masks. The mask is a form of worship of Dionysus, so it all kind of ties in together. I also run an organization on the internet called the Technitai Dionusou or Artists of Dionysus, which is a group focused on creating art in the service of the gods. Right now it's somewhat Hellenic, but it's open to everybody, and I've gotten some very interesting responses from people who have been writing poetry or painting, or anything, and have felt it to be a religious form as well as an artistic one.

I also go to Goddard College, and I am in my senior year, getting my BA in Ancient Religions/Ancient History. I was lucky enough to find a program that lets me my spiritual and artistic practice into one thing and really see it as a whole. So I can read a book about ancient Greek religion or history, and then I'll write about the last ritual I practiced, and the last mask I made. It's a really great experience.

I do my strictly Hellenic practice alone, but I also practice with a group called Kin of the Old Gods. The other members each follow their own path, so we are rather eclectic as a group. I haven't had much luck finding other Hellenic Pagans in Maine. And it's funny because if you asked a random person on the street which pantheon they are most familiar with, they would most likely answer Greco-Roman. Most people have heard about Zeus and Hera and all that in school, but there are very few people who practice Hellenic Paganism. I think a lot of that is based upon misconceptions that the ancient Greeks were patriarchal, which when you get further into it you'll find out, which I would love to talk about if anyone wants to know more.

Bill Dwinnells: My name is Bill Dwinnells. I am here representing Asatru in general, and I am part of Raven Kindred North in Massachusetts.

I've been Asatru for the last 11 years. The way I came about with reading "The Looting of Gelfay," where the main character meets three beings. And those of you who have had psychic experiences, I didn't know it at the time, but I had one. I was reading a passage where Gelfay asks the three beings, "Who are the gods who mention worship." He then goes on to name the Norse gods.

Asatru is a faith that has its roots in ancient Scandinavia. Most of the literature comes from the 5th, 6th and 7th Century, mostly because these are the only writings that have survived. What I usually caution people to know is that yes, there are a lot of Viking stories, Vikings could be big burly bearded pirates, but please do not base your judgment of Asatru on that. We would no more base our knowledge of Christians based on the actions of Christian pirates.

I would say that one of the things that really attracted me to Asatru was almost this polarity between seeking personal individual excellence, which makes people from Asatru very individualistic and to some a little hard to get along with. But at the same time, the whole reason for becoming such a strong individual is to better support your community. Because one of the things we learn through Asatru is that it's great to be a big strong guy, but it means nothing if you don't have a place to go home to.

Jennifer Moore: Hi, my name is Jennifer and I'm a Christian Witch, and I am also a Universalist. I am also the co-owner of Sanctuary Tattoo in Portland. I think the easiest thing to say is that I was born on Christmas day, and for me that has a lot to do with what formed my entire basis for spirituality. I was born to a Catholic mother, in a Jewish hospital. She decided to leave Catholicism before I showed up, so I was born to Athiests.

And so in kindergarden I was always being asked if I believed in God, and I would say, "No," and they would just look at me like I had six heads. But I was taught that there were flower fairies, my mother was an avid gardener who believed in flower fairies -- or at least she let us believe in them. And a grandmother, despite her rabid athiesm, was absolutely enamoured with mermaids, and would constantly tell us stories about them. She lived on the ocea, so we would go up and look in the rocks for these mermaids.

I was also a child of the sixties -- I'd run home every single day to watch "Bewitched" on TV. You know, Samantha rules! So it just occured to me that "of course I would be a witch." So I started to be a witch when I was very little. It just made sense to me. And I started to really crave religion and spirituality, and by the age of nine or ten, I was begging my parents to take me to church. And so being liberal human service workers, my parents brought me to the Unitarian Univeralist church. I became a Sunday school teacher, because I was just a little too old to fit into the Sunday school classes. So I shortly, within two years, became a Sunday school teacher. I just naturally have a real affinity to being a facilitator of other people's spiritual experiences. I should say that my first experience was in fourth grade -- a boy I had a crush on had brought me a paperback on "How to do Witchraft" from the Woolworth's store, and asked me to do a love spell on this other girl for him. And I had said to him something that I still say today, "You can't do a love spell for somebody else." Especially when you want them to love you.

When I was about eighteen, I started reading Tarot cards. I have just always been fascinated with the paranormal.

So I guess the biggest question people have for me is that if you're in this arena, how the heck can you possibly be a Christian? There are a lot of people who really believe that the two (faiths) are incompatible, and I guess what I want to say is that what really distinguishes myself between what I would call "Churchianity," which has to do with the institution and the dogma that human beings have created over the last two thousand years about the life and teachings of Christ Jesus. And for me, my Christianity is not formed by the Church, is not based upon the dogma created by all of the lies of Paul, who never met Jesus -- but by the teachings and life of Christ. And I see a very strong correlation, because Christ is somebody who is basically saying, "Get a clue. Love each other. Stop focusing on all of this stuff and love each other. The Kingdom of Heaven is within." And I personally believe that this is the being that came here to say that the divinity is within all of us. And so for me, my Christianity, my Christology, is the fire. I believe firmly that Christ, the annointed one, is the Holy Spirit that is within all of us. I believe that Christ Jesus was a being who was completely aware, way more than most of us are, of his divine self. He says, "Wake up. You have another choice. To live in awareness of your divinity." Perhaps if I had not been born on Christmas Day, I wouldn't be a Christian and a witch, but coming from my ancestors, to me the craft is also a part of ancestor worship. I come from a line of Irish Catholic women -- and so my goddess has been the Virgin Mary or Saint Brigid for a very long time. And I really find that honoring my ancestors in the ways we have incorporated our spirituality is very important to me. Often I like to integrate the traditions of my ancestors with the traditions that we have today. I could go on and on and on, but I'm sure I've just about used up my time. I'll wait for you to ask me a question.

QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION

Jon: This is the point in the evening where our panelists will take questions from the audience.

Audience: Kay, when you speak of Isis, I assume you are referring to the Egyptian pantheon? And if so, how did Isis end up in Ireland?

Kay: Isis for me is the new goddess tradition, with one name for all the aspects of female divinity around the world. When I say "Isis" I mean the Great Mother. And I do want to say that I feel that there is one Source with female and male aspects, and that the names of all the gods are attributes of that one aspect. So Isis to me is the Mother of 10,000 names who was worshiped throughout Europe and Northern Africa.

Audience: Sarah, what would you say are the differences between Paleo- and Neo-Paganism?

Sarah: I would say that Paleo-Paganism is tribal paganism. It is not necessarily ancient per se, in that some instances there are Africans right now who are worshipping multiple spirits -- they have traditions that date back to pre-Christian times. Anything that is a tradition going back to pre-Christian, polytheism, or animism I would consider Paleo-Paganism, whereas Neo-Paganism is something that is being completely created recently, or is a revial of something that is pre-Christan. For instance, I would have to technically say that I am a Neo-Pagan because it wasn't passed down from any lineage to me. I am reviing an ancient practice. At the same time I strive personally to incorporate belief in the spirit of Paleo-Pagan religions across the world, in many different aspects -- from ancestor worship on. Basically, I try to stick to ancient forms of worship rather than new ones.

Audience: Andras, you mentioned something about a lineage of Scottish witchcraft dating back to the 16th century. Could you tell us more about that?

Andras: Sure, I can tell you what I know about it. I was told that the original family started in Scotland after the ascent of James the Sixth, a notorious witch-hunter who brought the persecutions to the British Isles. First of all, at that time they were actually very few witches in Britain, and certainly Europe, because at that point there had been a lot of Christianization. By then, the role of the witch was marginal in society. The few remaining witches appear to have fled the witch-hunters. Unti the witch hunters went away, she might find shelter with other witches along the way, and gradually a great organic grouping together of witches happened to shelter themselves from the persecutors. That's how the word coven began.

These people went different places -- some of them went to America, and some went to the Highlands. And there apparently, in this particular case, there were some witches that intermarried and created a family, and eventually they moved back down to Edinburgh. The entire family are not witches, but there are key people in the family who are. I have seen materials dating back to the 18th and 19th century that document this information.

Audience: There is a second part to this question. I'm just curious of how components of ancient Scottish witchcraft managed to survived through the burning times of the late 16th Century.

Andras: First off, it's difficult to characterize it in any particular way, people were separated. The whole idea of a witch cult in any kind of meaningful way -- it was fiction. People didn't have that kind of contact with each other by then.

What was passed down to me was really a body of techniques that were meant to enable a person to open up their psychic centers, and have the sort of supernatural experiences that they're talking about. You do things and have experiences. You don't become a witch by reading about it, or just saying you're a witch -- you have experiences, and that's what shapes you as a witch.

Audience: I would like to ask each of you, what was your epiphany?

Marilyn: I would say mine happened when I read an article by Carol Krist, "Why We Need the Goddess." I was brought up a Methodist, but had had experiences with nature and so forth. But it did not occur to me, as Carol put it so eloquently, that I did not have the experience that every man in this culture had -- of seeing my gender as a divine image. And when I realized that, I saw that there was a whole collection of other stuff going on there.

Kay: In 1971 I took Charlotte Silver's course in sensory awareness, and during one of the exercises, I had a Kundalini Rising experience. I had no idea what that was, I just know that I had achieved bliss. My whole life turned around. I knew I had to leave my present situation. One of the books that helped me find a new direction was "Women in Music," which revealed that the ancient women musicians were priestesses of the Goddess. I thought, "Wow," and that was my bible. She wrote as much about women's spirituality as she did music, and that's where I was.

Andras: I think for me, having had psychic experiences as a small child that people around me didn't understand. When I met my teachers, they made these experiences real again.

Sarah: I guess I would say that there were two separate things. One being that around the age of eighteen, I realized that what I was really looking for was ritual. I think a lot of people are looking for ritual in their lives. I work with a lot of ritual at school, and there's a bunch of us that have been nicknamed, "The Ritualists." That's really what it comes down to in a lot of ways. I had all these feelings and beliefs, and when I started doing ritual and put them in a framework, I found it very satisfying. I did that more and more. And the second thing, which is much harder to speak of, and I will not go into great detail -- mostly because I just can't -- is my experience with having direct contact with the gods. It continues to go in this kind of cyclical thing. The more direct experiences I have, the more I want to have them. I pray to them, make offerings to them, perform ritual to them. It's a constant process of deepening.

Bill: I haven't had my epiphany yet. Though an major experience in my life occurred when I discovered the Norse concept of Wyrd, which is wrongly translated as fate. One of the great things I discovered is that Wyrd is really more like karma, and cause and effect type of thing. It was simultaneously the most liberating point in my life, and also the darkest terror that I have ever felt, when I learned that I am completely responsible for everything that happens in my life. If I may quote, "A word led to a word, a deed led to a deed." They call that the web of Wyrd, noticing the patterns in one's life and seeing how I shape them and create them. It was amazingly liberating, and now here I am, completely in control of my own life -- and at the same time, it's all my fault.

Jennifer: For me, it wasn't so much of an ultimate truth as it was a clue. My first clue was when I was taken to see Judy Chicago at a dinner party. It changed my life. For the first time in my life, I saw images of the Divine represented as a woman. It blew me away. And that day, I decided I would spend the rest of my life making images of the Goddess. I was already an artist, and I dedicated my life to Her then and there. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Around the same time I also discovered Richard Bach's "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" and discovered a path of enlightenment. There was also "Illusions," also by Bach, and it blew my mind as far as metaphysical thought goes. I consider these my first metaphysical primers. Eventually, I also discovered Merlin Stone's "When God was a Woman," and was outraged that the Goddess had been denied, and there was this mass conspiracy behind why God is never depicted as female. These are what got me here today, and in terms of an "ultimate truth," the thing I keep on coming to is: 1) I'm way stupider than I'd like to think I am, and 2) the bottom line is love, and that's really what it's about for me. And if I could get real simple, and just look at each human being as a human being, and get really to the truth love with each person, I feel that I am closer to the path.

Marilyn: I would just like to add one thing -- that there is no death without rebirth, and there is no rebirth without death.

Audience: What does the word religion mean to you?

Marilyn: Religion. I don't use the word much -- I prefer to call my beliefs spirituality instead. Connection -- to one-self, each other, nature, the Divine -- that is the essence.

Kay: I also prefer to call it spirituality. I believe in the Inherent Divinity in all things. But in order for a group of to celebrate that publicly, we have to call it a religion. I'm not sure I even like the word "religion," but for now, that's what we have to conform to make it valid in this society.

Andras: I define spirituality as the path of individual beliefs, and a religion as that of a group of two or more who think the same way. I like the whole idea of community, a group of people with common ground, to interact with the sacred as a group.

Sarah: I guess I would say the complete opposite, but as it relates to my individual beliefs. Some have negative connotations of the word religion, they think of a church as something that takes away one's individual spirituality. And actually, I have felt negative connotations toward the term spirituality, because of what seems to be the lack of obligation of some people. I love the meaning of the root word, "religio," which means "what binds," as in what binds one to one's gods or whatever they believe. To me it means "what binds me to my gods," and that, I feel, is what makes me compelled to worship and make offerings to my gods, to pray, to carry out ritual. Spirituality and religion basically mean the same thing, but I prefer the term religion for my beliefs.

Bill: I see religion as a codified set of beliefs which are interchangeable. In Asatru, you can call it a religion or not -- what you're going for is the function of it, which to me is more important. I like to think of it as self-cultivation in the Daoist sense. You could do the same thing if you study martial arts, whatever you do, you are doing it to improve yourself. Religion attempts to, but not always succeeds, in taking things to a spiritual realm. When I studied martial arts, there was a story about a man walking up the side of a mountain. When he got to the top of the mountain, there were all these other people there. Religion, to me, connotes a specific type of path to get to the top of the mountain there. It's not a word I use often.

Jennifer: I think I agree a lot with what Andras said about community. I think of religion as being a consensus -- a way that we can clarify our experiences of the Divine, which is nearly impossible to put into words. It's the path of particularity, it's a choice, it's taking something that is profoundly infinite, and turning it into a finite choice in individual practice. I see religion as a devotional practice of a particular discipline. I also really agree that for me, I would call myself a religious person rather than a spiritual one. For me, religion being deeply committed to whatever path you are taking. Like last night, I drove an hour-and-a-half down to Massachusetts to facilitate a circle for the Spring Equinox. Sometimes it's annoying, sometimes I really wish I could just sleep in and stay at home, but what I find is so rewarding for me about the discipline of choosing to participate in a system that is kind of arbitrary, is that I showed up and was rewarded with the experience that was generated from that.

Sarah: What Jenn just said reminded me of something C.S. Lewis wrote in "Screw Tape," "It is the times when prayer is dry that it is the most important time to do prayer." When you no longer have the direct experience, but are just doing it because that's what you do, is when it's the most important to do it. That is what makes it something meaningful. I've found that the more I perform ritual, the more I make myself do it even when I don't feel like it, that often is the most rewarding thing in the long run. There will always be times when you don't always feel it, but I believe in doing it no matter what.

Audience: I have a question for Andras, and whoever else wants to answer it. With regards to your non-theistic believes, what is your concept of the Divine?

Andras: My practice is more like a Buddhist. There is a sense of deity, but I believe we perceive something that is indescribable, but we can relate to it. My sense of relating to the sacred -- and with me it's nothing that I worship or name -- is a deep visceral soul-felt experience. The concept of divinity really doesn't have a lot of meaning for me.

Jennifer: As an artist, I absolute love that people have been trying to quantify the unquantifyable. I experience the Divine as something so remarkable, and so inconceivable, and incomprehensible. But I chose to approach it in a different way. I love all the different ways various paths honor the different faces of God. I love the various celebrations and rituals. All these ways we as human beings have tried to make sense of the insensible. I feel that the idea of anthropomorphizing things is a charming thing that we as humans have done. I really adore how many faces we can some up with for God, again using an anthropomorhpic name for something that is beyond the beyond. It's so fun -- I want one of these, and one of these. Some people definitely argue with me that the "flavor of the month" is not necessarily appropriate, and I really want to clarify that in the honoring of all the different faces of God, I think it is really important to be deeply respectful and aware of the ancestors of the spiritual tradition from which whatever you're doing comes from.

Marilyn: I would like to add a quote from Madeline L'Engel who said, "When we begin to mistake the icon for the Divine itself, it's no longer an icon but an idol."

Kay: I see the Divine not as a being but an essence.

Audience: I have a question for Bill -- could you tell us about Loki, and how he applies to Asatru.

Bill: Loki is Loki. He is a trickster deity, and has been confused with Satan. Loki is not evil like that. In modern Asatru, there are some folks who look to Loki as their patron. These folks are usually working with a lot of chaos in their lives, and are trying to understand that. I've found that a lot of people who work with Odin (the Asatru god of wisdom), end up working with Loki at some point. Odin and Loki are blood-brothers -- the two go hand-in-hand. Odin took an oath that he would never drink anyplace where Loki was not welcome. Odin represents madness of an inspirational nature, while Loki is more chaos and upheaval. When people start settling for things, Loki comes in and knocks things down -- but in rebuilding them, one gains strength.

Audience: It seems that his position has been downplayed.

Bill: That's not true. If anything, I feel he has an increased presence in this world, because so many people have increased chaos in their lives.

Audience: Sarah, you mentioned actually seeing the gods. Could you describe this?

Sarah: There is a magical law that states, "As above, so below," which I believe in. Anything that is happening in this physical realm, is also happening at the same time in a spiritual realm as well. There is physical illness and spiritual illness. What Shamans do is cure the spiritual illness, which as a result, takes care of the physical illness. I see beautiful diversity in life on Earth, and I see it also in the spiritual realm. There are many different plants and animals, and I see all these different gods and spirits. I really love that. And because of that, I choose to worship those beings because there is something so beautiful that calls to me. And that is why I am anthropomorphic and polytheistic. I believe these deities exist, and that's a matter of faith to some extent, but I can also seen, felt and touched these beings. The gods are there and very real.

Audience: Andras, tells us about your experiences with nature.

Andras: It is difficult for me to do that because those experiences, for the most part, tend to be transcendent -- beyond ordinary language. What I could say is that it is a sense of communion, a sense of going beyond my own personal identity, and experiencing myself as a part of something that is much greater. I think for me, that is the core of what spirituality is about. Here we have traditions are based on a communion with nature. How far can we move away from a direct experience with nature without changing the traditions to such a degree -- how close are we to nature? What we need to realize is that in Pagan traditions, and the earth traditions, are probably the only traditions on the planet whose original founding teachers are physically present -- because our original teachers are the stones, and the trees, and the mountains, and the rivers, and the land itself. That is who the original Pagans learned from. And we are in communion with these beings who are still there, and can still teach us an awful lot, as long as we open ourselves up to them.

Audience: I have a question for Kay -- what is involved in becoming a priestess of the Iseum Musicum?

Kay: It is a non-hierarchical program, though I am the coordinator. We modeled our program after a similar program in the re-formed Congregation of the Goddess, where there are six paths that one can follow: the creatrix, earth walker, healer, teacher, scholar, organizer, and one with integrated studies. Some of the studies include counseling, theatre, art, music, world religions, feminism, divination, ecology and environmental activism, healing, energetic, etc. Basically, we are working to embody the Feminine Divine through the individual lives, and in our community.

We have two classes, one that's been going on for a year, and one that's just beginning. We work together for 50 hours a year together, and 40 hours of individual study. There's an evaluation at the end of the year. The entire training takes three years.

Audience: I'd like to ask each of the panelists, how does faith enter into what you do?

Marilyn: When Starhawk was asked, "Do you believe in the goddess?" she answered, "Do you believe in rocks?" It is a religion of individuality, and one practices a path of what you yourself have experienced.

Kay: Faith to me, means something you believe in, even if you have no proof -- and there's plenty of proof.

Andras: Good statement. One of the things that I found fascinating in my apprenticeship is when my teachers told me, "We will train you, provided you don't believe a thing that we tell you." Later it became clear to me that what they meant was, "Don't believe what others tell you -- believe what you experience yourself."

Sarah: I believe that there is proof everywhere. It's just plain obvious to me that there is divinity everywhere, and that the gods I experience do exist -- there is no question. However, first to reiterate that there are times when you don't believe, and that's when faith comes into play, and you can make a conscious choice to persevere through those times. Also, I believe it is important to know the traditions your ancestors followed, and that of the ancestors of the path you follow. Although personal experience is incredibly important, when you are working with one historic pantheon, that you pay attention to what people who have followed these paths did for many years.

Bill: When I think of faith, I think back to what I said earlier about Wyrd and the patterns that our lives take. The Web of Wyrd is woven by three sisters, the Njords -- Past, Present, and Should. To me faith is "should." It is what should happen based on what you've already been doing. For example, I put gas in my car, and it should start and get me home tonight. Knowing what should happen because of the actions I have taken in my life.

Jennifer: I'm such a human being, and I love "Amazing Grace," it's one of my favorite songs. For me, faith is very much about when a tree is just a tree. Some days I look at the universe with the view that a plant is God, and everything in here is divine and holy. Then there are these days when I feel crappy, and I look at the world and everything is pretty hollow and yucky to me. To me faith is very much like love, in that it is something that I am willing to suspend my belief, that it is great enough to contain its opposite. I need faith, I'm so prone to weakness and vulnerability, and I'm so prone to freaking out, especially when I start to think of all the things we are doing to the planet right now. I find that faith is this balm that saves my ass, again and again and again.

Marilyn: Reclamation witches do things differently each time. Repetition creates power. Actions repeat, but in different ways. The repetition is there. But by having variety, you learn depth, differences. They can also become ruts (to do the same thing all the time.).

Sarah: Ritual is forced upon folks. But choosing one thing over and over can put you in a place where you can get to the heart of the thing.

Marilyn: All religions have fundamentalism, including Pagans.

Jon: As moderator, I'd like to say a few words. I'd like to make a comment about faith myself. I took a Philosophy of Religion class here at USM taught by Joe Gage. It rocked a lot of peoples foundations, and really muddied the waters for some in class. But for me, it only increased my own belief. I tend to word the word belief more so than faith.

Audience: My question is about community service -- what are some of the things that people are doing?

Kay: The Iseum Musicum are new. We want to introduce the Feminine Divine into the community. We're also involved in environmental activism, letter-writing, making sure people are accountable for their actions.

Marilyn: I am currently a solitary, but I am a representative with the Earth Tides Pagan Network. We recently donated books on Paganism to the Maine State Police Academy, so they'll know what we're really about and not confuse us with Satanists. We try to do educational programs, sponsored diversity days, and have had a booth at the Common Ground Fair.

Sarah: Being active in events like this, participating in Pagan Coffee Talks. My organization, which I began several months ago, is the Artisans of Dionysus. I had found out about this ancient organizations of artists, poets, actors, and the like, who used to go around performing plays. During a ritual, I had gotten a feeling of directive, that this was something I needed to do. I put up a web site to attract and gather together those who are making art in the service of the gods, whether Hellenic or from other pantheons.

Andras: I mentioned earlier that I am the director of the EarthSpirit community out in Western Massachusetts. We organize events and activities, such as Rites of Spring, which draws 500-700 Pagans from all over. People get together and have rituals and workshops, music, community and so forth. Another thing we concentrate on is interfaith relations. Just recently, we sent representatives to the Third Parliament of the World Religions.

Jennifer: The only day I was talking with my partner about social action versus living a life that is personally responsible. For me I believe it starts at home. It starts with personal responsibility for one's health, and living in honesty. And then taking it beyond that by encouraging right relations with others. To work as a healer on a regular basis. And when opportunities arise to appear in public, it is important to not hide. It is so crucial that we put ourselves out into the world. And a willingness to hear different opinions, and be open to common interests as well. To me it's not about specific actions, but living each day respectively. Saying "thank you" and meaning it.

Bill: In my group, the Kindred North, we do a lot of community service such as blood drives and soup kitchens. We also help the members of the Asatru community when they're in need.

Jon: I just want to add that the Pagan Students' Association here on campus has a goal of promoting tolerance and understanding in the religious community here at USM, and the PSA is one of the more active student groups here on campus. It is open to all Pagans in the community -- you don't need to be a student to join. The PSA works with other student groups by helping to co-sponsor events that promote environmental awareness, diversity, and women's issues.

Audience: What do you see as the biggest challenge to the Neo-Pagan community?

Kay: For those involved with the Feminine Divine, that men are not excluded, because we've all been denied. Women need the Feminine Divine for empowerment. The feminine needs to be honored equally with the masculine. I hope to one day establish a temple of the Divine, but for now we need to focus on Feminine Divine.

Andras: One of the biggest challenges is that we, as Pagans, are trying to revitalize and restore ancient religious practices without a culture to support it. We have all been conditioned by our primarily Christian culture, to such a degree that it influences people that aren't Christian, and that things our culture perceives as "normal" are actually Christian. We don't see the difference anymore. We need to recapture what practices Pagans have for child-rearing, for marriage, for dealing with money, for dealing with the environment. We need to try to find ways to implement these things to help support our religious practices.

Sarah: I would like to reiterate what I said earlier, that as Pagans we need to start trying to make our practice part of our daily lives, make it a part of everything we do from going to work, to raising our children. Like looking at the sun every day, whether you're praying to a Solar deity, or just appreciating the gifts the sun gives to life on earth. Daily prayer, daily meditation. I think that we need to try to make it part of our lives, and it's not always easy. The other thing I feel that Neo-Paganism as a movement has spent a lot of time going off into different branches, and personally I think that we should try to come together and find what our similarities are, so we can present ourselves as a unified community to other communities.

Bill: I think the first caveat I'd have to give is that until recently, Asatru was not really part of the Pagan community. It is a movement that grew very independent of the Neo-Pagan community. Why they were separate, I don't know. One of the things I think is the biggest challenge facing Asatru is where do we fit into the Neo-Pagan community? While Asatru has some earth-based components, the earth does not play as prominent a role as it does in some other Pagan paths. But I see the Neo-Pagan community as sort of a lost brother or sister, we need to come back together. There's a lot we can teach each other.

Jennifer: I think that the human factor is the biggest challenge facing the Pagan community. I've been around the community for a long time, and I've seen a lot of attrition. People get really hopeful, they come in with stars in their eyes, and then start to feel the issues that plague our community, and not have any way of dealing with it, and then leave in a huff. I think we are getting better at this, and learning how to communicate as humans who were not taught real communication skills and conflict management. We need to learn how to deal with disagreement. And when you go beyond the weekend gathering, you have to deal with the resentments that come up. There are all these things on what you have to do to make things real, and how to cope with it. The other problem facing the Pagan community is finances -- we live in a Judeo-Christian culture that is very capitalistic, and everything is about money and the bottom line. How do you support the community. It's nice to talk about barter, but when we do gatherings, we still have to pay for insurance, food, etc. There's a lot of people who get resentful about money and spirituality getting tied together. That is a real challenge we are coming to. Another real challenge is the Internet -- we have a rapid explosion of people who are calling themselves Pagan without the support of real living community, and opportunities for people to be working. We are growing at such an incredibly rapid rate that our teacher and our clergy are not fully prepared to deal with it. We have a lot of amazing challenges, but despite that, we seem to keep on growing.

Marilyn: Well the simple answer I think is educating the larger community. We should not be afraid of our differences. We need to reject the power over model, and wake up our power within. We need to raise the consciousness of the world in general to what we are.

Jon: I would like to ask a question that hasn't been asked. In the nineties, we have experienced "Sabrina the Teen-Age Witch," "The Craft," and "Practical Magic," as well as an explosion of books on magic and witchcraft. Does anyone have a comment they would like to make on that?

Sarah: Yes, there seems to be a perception of magic being an inherent part of Wicca or Paganism. The concept of magic in the form of spells and whatnot -- some people do spells, and there's nothing wrong with that -- but that's a lot of what you see in the media. Movies like the ones you mentioned, and books on "How to Do Love Spells," and the like, with no mention of any religions views or the spirituality behind Paganism, or background information. These are the things that have given people a bad impression of Paganism. They don't understand that there's an underlying religion or set of spiritual practices involved. According to films like "The Craft," we have amazing magical powers and can do anything we want to. It's not like that at all. It creates an awful impression when people use the word Wicca or "witch." People think, "Oh so you're Wiccan. You must have magical powers." That is why people can't relate to us, or think of Paganism as a religion.

Kay: That's why we need to be setting it straight, so to speak. I'm mad and I'm not going to take it anymore.

Jennifer: We need to create our own art and movies about what we're really about. Create new images of ourselves as Pagans.